Muslim deception and Jihad

Please follow the discussion with a muslim apologist:

bhigr: Do you think that Islam is more likely than other faiths to encourage violence? Yes. Islam is the only faith that preaches warfare, jihad, as a means for spreading Islam. Offensive Jihad is a collective obligation of the ummah. So now that Americans are waking up to the teachings of islam they must be bigots.

Unless muslims stop wining about islamophobia and start addressing the troubling content of their religion, the rational opposition to Islam will grow.


Muslim: Oh man I'm going to rip you apart here. You're using "Arabic" words to think you know something? *ahem* Saying "Islam encourages violence' implies it says to attack people by definition. Therefore, I now ask you:
1. Where does it encourage violence?
2.Where does it say that "Offensive Jihad is an obligation of the Ummah?"
The term Islamophobia got coined to address those like you who think they know something when they don't. They react without actually knowing "why"
Your response

bhigr: "...the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people, till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the messenger (from the Lord) and in all that I have brought. And when they do it, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection on my behalf except where it is justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah." Sahih Muslim, book 1 chapter 9 Hadith 31.
I think that says it all! Now rip yourself apart!

Muslim: Actually, this just shows your further bias towards this and your complete ignorance on how to use Hadiths. Let me break it down a bit for you: Hadiths are to be used as "Cross References" to the Qur'an, to further explain or give a back story to something. When something contradicts the Qur'an or is from a recorder that isn't an authority, it's dismissed as weak.Now, I ask you.
1. What people? Who are the "People?"
Please source me to the Qur'an, don't try using Hadiths again...

bhigr: Dear professor, do you still claim that this hadith does not encourage violence? The people are non-muslims;-) Otherwise fighting against them "till" they convert to Islam would be absurd;-) If you want a scholarly explanation, then please refer to "The Reliance of the Traveller", Revised Edition, chapter o9.0-o9.10. There it is spelled out in detail, including all the quran and hadith references you could wish for, including the one I just quoted;-)
"Hadiths are to be used as "Cross References" to the Qur'an, to further explain or give a back story to something." That is actually wrong. The sunnah of the prophet, his words and deeds, are an independent source for shariah, sacred law. Muhammad is al-Insān al-Kāmil (the perfect human) and uswa hasana (an excellent model of conduct).
Therefore, muslims must also follow the sunnah of mohammed.
Now, let me prove this using the quran.
4:80 He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).
33:21 Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.

Muslim: You said Islam, which implies the Qur'an. The people are non-Muslims as to what, Christians & Jews? Or Pagans? Look again and you will see it's the latter. No one was forced. Reliance of the traveler is liked by most by the individual behind it isn't considered a "scholar" A historian maybe but not a scholar. The Hadith are not independent!!! Who told you that?that would imply that people could follow hadiths alone, that would be blasphemy for them.
Where was Muhammad considered the perfect human??? He is considered to be the perfect "Example" Big difference. Be careful with how you use your words, people will think you are making Muhammad into a Divine being. Look at what you just posted, 4:80, that right there shows you that it says "If they turn away, we have not sent thee to look over their evil deeds" Doesn't that tell you right there to leave the ones who turn away as he wasn't sent to watch over their evil deeds? lol
Now, let's goto the Qur'an, shall we? Look at Sura 3:20
... If they submit, then they have been guided, but if they turn away, your sole mission is to deliver this message. GOD is Seer of all people.You're sole mission is to deliver the message"
The fact you have the links in your profile directing you and others to these verses baffles me.
Why don't you actually read into any of them?

Bhigr: You choose which, I don't care whether it be christians, jews or pagans. The hadith preaches warfare as a means for spreading Islam. If you want to know how mushrikun are to be treated versus the people of the book, then look up Surah 9, Verse 5 and Surah 9, Verse 29. The "Reliance of the Traveller" carries the seal of the Al-Azhar islamic research academy. The highest and most reputably school of sunny Islam in the world.
He (mohammed) is considered the perfect human by mainstream islamic scholars. The quran demands that one must obey the prophet and his example;-) I could site dozens of additional quran verses that say the same;-) Therefore, the sunnah of mohammed is shariah. No doubt about that;-)
O.K. Do you have any more leg to stand on? I pulled away two of them already;-)
Oh, I have actually read them (my references). Therefore, I do know the doctrine of abrogation in Islam. Do you want to travel that slippery slope? Or just rip yourself apart, that's probably less painful;-)

Muslim: No, it actually does matter. When using it the way you are trying to, it implies that Muslims are to fight everyone everywhere and it's wrong. The time that this took place, Pagans/Meccans were trying to kill Muhammad and the companions, they did not fight back until they were advised to with the following verses. But look at what it instructs
Sura 9:29 "Keyword, Fight Back"
You always see fight verses in DEFENSE, never offense as you suggested in your other post.
This is my point

bhigr: Well yes, muslims must spread the faith using jihad until the religion is entirely Allahs.
9:29 Fight back? Nope. It says "qatala", meaning: "to kill, put to death, slay/murder/kill/slaughter, attempt to kill, to wage war/combat/battle..."
Dear professor, Now that you have resorted to the worst tactic of them all in a discussion, namely lying, I think your credibility is at stake. I would consider continuing the debate if you return to the truth and admit your mistake. Otherwise, good day ;-)

Muslim: Actually, You just shot yourself in the foot again but this time, beautifully, and I'm grateful that you have. I can now back off and take a breather. Go in your own links, look at 9:29. Then look at 9:28 at who "they" are. You can try pulling that midget minded, self centered, "I am smarter than you because I know Arabic words" with someone else who doesn't actually read next time. Do yourself a favor now, go read into your own links and learn something... Peace

bhigr: For the general public, let me quote "The reliance of the traveller"
"The objectives of Jihad
o9.8 The caliph (muslim ruler) makes war upon Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians... until they become Muslim or else pay the Non-Muslim poll tax....
o9.9 The caliph fights all other people until they become Muslim....)

9:29 talks about the people of the book, i.e. Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians.Now that you have ripped yourself apart, repent ;-)
Peace is a nice wish, but Islam is against peace with unbelievers. Islam preaches warfare until the unbelievers either convert or submit as dhimmis under shariah law, an apartheid system. ;-) That's the main problem. Islam preaches warfare as a means for spreading Islam. Offensive Jihad is a collective oblitation of the muslim Ummah.
Hey liar, the next time you pick a fight, try someone that fits your size ;-) But then, it was really fun to shred you to pieces.

Muslim: Keep telling yourself that you weirdo...I usually interject or enter into a discussion respectfully but, when I saw what you said then looked into your profile, seeing you have links to authority ( like the Qur'an & Hadiths ) and you still were manipulating things, that's when I had to make sure to make the point that you were a liar. I feel no remorse for people like you, just pity.You tried to quote a hadith then stating it's independent from the Qur'an ( which it isn't ) Then you went to the Qur'an but I got you there as well, by the very verse you stated. You mention it speaks about Zorastians, which is laughable and further proves your ignorance into the history of the Meccan tribes ( Zorastians were Persian, not Arabian ) Then you mention the traveler book and I'm not about to go wasting time on that when the Hadith & Qur'an state enough to prove the point that you were wrong in your assertions. You were going to waste my time and I wasn't about to have that. I proved my point, you even helped in that so i thank you for that part lol Don't even think you can try to waste my time here...Do yourself a favor, read into what you have and, understand it before spreading disinformation. It's to your benefit, not anyone else's. I'm not winning a medal from this exchange, you read & learn, if not, then so be it...
You repeating the word "Liar" does nothing to what is and isn't. I knew about the book (The traveler), I never had a problem with it. i stated that I wouldn't use it as a source for anything, especially not a discussion considering it isn't a point of "authority" the way the "Qur'an & Hadith" are. I feel like I'm talking to a child, do you even realize what you are typing? You aren't even using the word "Shariah" in the correct way. The discussion was very clear. You stated that Muslims are obligated to wage "Jihad" according to Islam. That implies that the Qur'an And/Or the Hadiths instruct so. You mentioned 9:29 if i remember correctly, when read, it shows that it doesn't. There are also numerous verses contradicting your claims, but you won't look into them. Then you resort to mentioning a book, that isn't the Qur'an or the Hadith... This is when I saw you are just trying to waste time...Case closed. Stop repeating yourself and calling me a liar because you aren't able to comprehend this through your thick skull.

Bhigr: Hey liar,"manipulating things": Very funny. I didn't lie you did liar. Shame on you! The hadith are independent source of shariah. That doesn't mean the quran isn't a source of shariah. The plain truth! The mention of zoroastrian is not mine, they are considered people of the book according to Al-Azhar university;-) You are laughable! The traveler book? You didn't even know this book. It is a standard manual for shariah law, endorsed by the highest school of islamic learning! You write it is not a scholarly work. Double liar. You are a despicable liar!

Bhigr: Hey Liar, live it with. You are nothing but a liar. You said 9:29 says "fight back", but it doesn't. This is what is says:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
No fighting back until they stop attacking you. No, no, no! Fight until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued!That is offensive warfare my dear despicable liar!
"There are also numerous verses contradicting your claims, but you won't look into them."
There are many more verses that support my opinion as well as all mainstream islamic scholars. Then, you don't appear to know the doctrine of abrogation.
Surah 2, 106: "Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?"
Whenever Allah changes his mind, his latest "communication" (Ayah also means verse) takes precedence and abrogates older verses, i.e. they are null and void. Surah 9 was the last Surah revealed to mohammed. Therefore, these verses supersede all the older verses!
Case closed. Bye bye despicable liar!


Muslim: People like you deserve a good hit. In the translation I used it does.
[9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly. http://www.submission.org/suras/sura9.htm
Again, this speaks towards the pagans as shown in the verse before that:
009.028
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
Subdued to God, not to Muhammad, why are you conflating the two? To further add to it, look at 3:20 [3:20] If they argue with you, then say, "I have simply submitted myself to GOD; I and those who follow me." You shall proclaim to those who received the scripture, as well as those who did not, "Would you submit?" If they submit, then they have been guided, but if they turn away, your sole mission is to deliver this message. GOD is Seer of all people. You are distorting those who attack and fight against to those who simply refuse. There is no kind of force, how in the world are you seeing otherwise. The verse you keep quoting is in context to battle, not every day life, and 3:20 is just one of many that showcases just that. Allah doesn't "change" his mind you imbecile, learn what an abrogation is and how it's meant in the Qur'an. 2 Ways it is said to be used.
1. Muhammad would get revelation before announcing them to the companions that would be changed as a test to him and the companions that did hear, these were not entered into the Qur'an.
2. Verses, such as protecting the people of the book, would later come to say, to fight against them.
Why? Let's say I'm commanded to protect you, and tomorrow you turn against me to harm me, I have a right to defend myself. That's how abrogations are used, NOTHING is cancelled out. Give me 1 verse and another that you see as abrogating and I'll show you if you don't see it. Do yourself a favor, don't call me a liar again. I'm actually taking the time out now to break this nonsense down for you...



Bhigr: Hey Liar! You are really funny. "In the translation I used it does." Sure, you and your cronies feal they have the freedom to forge;-)
Here are dozens of translations that contradict:
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/9/29/default.htm
All the generally accepted translations as well as all the translations by non-muslims state fight, not fight back! And they are right, because qatala means kill and fight to kill. But then, you must still learn a lot, liar! Now, you have the choice. Either you stop lying and return to the truth or you shall be called liar until your very end;-)
"Again, this speaks towards the pagans as shown in the verse before that:"
1. Verse 9:29 explicitely mentions the people of the book, not the pagans. Improve your reading skills.
2. It doesn't matter whether pagans or people of the book must be wared upon. This is incitement to violence and offensive war against non-muslims (jihad).
The verse 9:29 is in the context of battle, that is right. The verse is about waging war on unbelievers, in particular people of the book. Allah doesn't change his mind? Sure, he does. He even admits this in the quran. So let me repeat:
2:106 And for whatever verse We abrogate or cast into oblivion, We bring a better or the like of it; knowest thou not that God is powerful over everything?
13:39 Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.
16:101 And when We change (one) communication for (another) communication, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: You are only a forger. Nay, most of them do not know.
Sure, Allah is an imbecile. You are quite right;-) Bye bye, liar!
Hey liar, check out this cite, which gives you a detailed explanation of each arabic word in 9:29
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=9&verse=29
and check out the meaning of qatala
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=qtl#(9:29:1)
kill, fight? yup, that's what it means. And the form in 9:29
qātilū (قَٰتِلُوا۟) verb (3)
2nd person masculine plural (form III) imperative verb Second person plural, in english that means you! imperative verb, this means, it is a command! Allah commands the muslims to fight the people of the book! So, now that you have been brought low, repent liar!

Muslim: Now, you're beginning to get on my nerves. Again, you hurt yourself by sourcing more. Look at the translations yourself. Get glasses if you need to.
In order:
Fight against those
Fight Against
Fight those
You are implying something says "Attack those or Attack Them" You are playing semantics here, this is getting ridiculous now. You say "Qatala" means "Kill and fight to kill" while the translations you point to don't even say that, are you blind or something? 9:29 implies people of the book that joined the ranks of the pagans, hence it saying "Those who do not believe in God and judgement day/last day" Jews believe in it, Christians do as well, Pagans don't. It actually does matter if it is pagans or not because you keep implying that Muslims are to fight against anyone who isn't Muslim. That in itself is very disingenuous and a major problem the media tries to reflect onto those who don't understand Islam. You say "Verse 9:29 is right that it's in context of battle, waging war on unbelievers, in particular, people of the book" What don't you understand... the PEOPLE OF THE BOOK THAT SIDE WITH THE PAGANS, HENCE, ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE. Like if you are a Christian and side with the Pagan or someone and come against me to kill me after I having protected you. You are still a person of the book but you are now an enemy. Why don't you use your brain for a moment and think about what is being told??? Bringing a better verse is not changing a mind man, everything is planned and if you knew anything about theology/religion, you'd understand that all prophets & messengers were tested by God, one way or another. Again, like I said before, nothing is cancelled out. That was the basis for you bringing up the term "abrogations" And if you continue to drive this argument even further, don't even bother replying because you are circling around the same issue and I have to keep breaking it down over and over and frankly, it's wasting time for no reason. You have a bias, I saw it in your profile with MemriTV videos so I see what and why your view is as staunch as it is. Either choose to understand something or stay blind. I can only break down things so many times before I see that someone is hopeless...


Bhigr: My dear liar, I just sent you the grammatical form of the verb, which is an imperative. Imperative means that this is a command to fight. "You say "Qatala" means "Kill and fight to kill" while the translations you point to don't even say that, are you blind or something?"
Well, who is actually blind, you are!
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=qtl#(9:29:1)
"It actually does matter if it is pagans or not because you keep implying that Muslims are to fight against anyone who isn't Muslim."
Oh, this is interesting. Previously you said the verse refers to pagans. Now, you've changed your mind? It refers to people of the book. Previously, you said it was the command to fight back. But, doesn't. It means fighting the people of the book!
"What don't you understand... the PEOPLE OF THE BOOK THAT SIDE WITH THE PAGANS, HENCE, ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE."
Hey liar, you just added something to the quran ;-) You do know that I rip your lies apart don't you? None of this is part of verse 9:29 If you want to know why the people of the book must be fought, then you must read your wholy book:
9:30 The Jews say, 'Ezra is the Son of God'; the Christians say, 'The Messiah is the Son of God.' That is the utterance of their mouths, conforming with the unbelievers before them. God assail them! How they are perverted!
Now, let's see what "assail" actually means. This is a word we know already;-)
"qatalahumu!" The same word used in surah 9:29 ;-) fight, kill, right? Allah destroy them! Allah kill them! (it is ridiculous to "fight" against an omnipotent god) Yup, that is your filthy religion!

Muslim: lol You're unbelievable...You now give a break down word for word for the exact reply I'd give you in return? Again it says "Fight those who DO NOT believe in Alllah (God)...." Come on man... what is wrong with you, seriously...I think I did my part, you do what you wish but, I will include just one final reply to you that should set everything on route. You do what you want from here on out, I'm done with you....
http://www.islamic-shield.com/2008/01/violent-verses.html


Bhigr: Dear professor, Yes, you did your part, but you lost utterly. This is not because you are stupid, this is because Islam is indefensible. Again it says "Fight those who DO NOT believe in Alllah (God)...." Yes, "fight those who do not believe in Allah..., until they pay the jyzah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued!" At least you took back your first lie, namely "fight back".
You must understand that we kuffar must take precaution against muslims who take their book seriously and wage war against the people of the book. This is not an evil conspiracy of the west against the humble and innocent muslims. Islam has declared war on the world and we non-muslims must face it.
If you wish a peaceful coexistence of muslims and non-muslims as citizens with equal rights (no dhimmitude!), then you must address the troubling content of your holy book. If not, then you will face the consequences. We shall not submit to the muslim overlords and we are more powerful than you are.
Regards Bhigr

PS: I failed to address the historical context of the verse. This was also a lie by the muslim. Please read the following explanation:

http://bhigr.blogspot.com/2011/01/further-muslim-deception.html

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